This doesn't bide well for the future.....

[lmlloyd]

Wow, having slogged through this entire thread, I feel so sorry for the people at 3DConnexion. I bet they are questioning the wisdom of putting out the cheap PE edition right about now. You posters just don't get it do you? Ok, I will try to explain it as someone who has been using products like this since the late '90s. Because while you might think that this is some new product that just popped up, and thus needs your advice, these things have been around for over a decade.

First off, let me say, you aren't going to be particularly convincing with your arguments that this company would conquer the world if they just sold this, and supported it, as a gaming device. This was already tried with the Spaceball, and no one was interested. In fact, the company did so well with that strategy, that they got bought out, by these guys!

Secondly, if you want a joystick, then buy a joystick. This is not a joystick! The whole point of a device like this is to have six axises of freedom AT THE SAME TIME, while using the mouse. If you want to map keyboard commands to a device, I would highly recommend any of the USB keypads that let you configure any key commands you want, like the Nostromo.

Everyone keeps asking for a "generic driver." But it already HAS a generic driver. It is a generic USB HID device. It is ALREADY running on a generic Microsoft driver, and is completely compliant. Any app developer that wants to support this device can right now. Anyone who wants to write their own middleware can right now. What you really want, isn't a "generic driver" it is a custom app to assign your axises to any input, like what comes with many joysticks. If that is what you want, you are going to get a lot further actually asking for what you want, instead of trying to confuse the issue by repeatedly claiming it is lacking a "generic driver" which it already has.

I don't think you realize that this device doesn't work exactly like you think it does. Quite a while back, I had to code a control scheme to use an old Spaceball in Maya, and I can tell you, there is more to it than just assigning a value to the axis. You see, once you have it working in an app as just a straight map of the axis to values, suddenly there are a million more requests. To get it working like you really want it to, would require either a very complex mapping application, or a scripting language, like the old Thrustmaster HOTAS system had, or the JazzMutant Lemur has. Problem is, that maintaining an app like that really does require a fair amount of resources, and that app would do nothing to make the product better in actual 3D apps.

In 3D apps, you have a whole other set of concerns, like how to set the pivot point, how to make the camera keyable, how to switch between camera control and object control, how to move the camera without disabling mouse input, and many other issues that require either native app support, or a custom middleware app. For example, there is already a user-created app that you claim does EXACTLY what you want, so why don't you just use that? Oh, right, because you want an app "exactly" like that, except you want some changes made, and you want support for it, and you want them to test it to make sure it works in your favorite app. Of cours then you claim it shouldn't be much of a problem, right?

I will also point out that, both the old Thrustmaster HOTAS and JazzMutant Lemur cost a whole lot more than your $60 SN. Part of the reason for that is because it just isn't worth it for any company to cater to every user's whim, for only $60, unless you are selling millions of the devices, which there doesn't seem to be any indication they can expect to do anytime soon. Those of you who claim to work at giant companies, and therefore reason that being owned by Logitec gives them unlimited resources, obviously either don't work for large companies, or are so low on the organizational chart that you don't ever see a budget. No department at any company can just spend unlimited funds on development without justification, unless it happens to be the pet project of the CEO, or the department is being run by his nephew. Now, given that this company gets a few hundred dollars from every one of their actual 3D app-using customers who buy the full-blown devices, why should they devote their development resources to a bunch of whining gamers who are pissed that they can't use their $60 toy in just like they do their joystick, instead of working to improve the product for its intended purpose?

All of that said, I would like to say to the people at 3D Connexion, what I would like to see is better integration with CS3. I love how the device works with Photoshop, I really can't fathom why it doesn't work exactly the same way with Illustrator or Fireworks. I also don't understand why I can't use it as a jog/****** in Premier, or for camera control in After Effects. If you are going to support some of CS3, I really think it only makes sense to support the whole package.

[DCrosby]

All of that said, I would like to say to the people at 3D Connexion, what I would like to see is better integration with CS3. I love how the device works with Photoshop, I really can't fathom why it doesn't work exactly the same way with Illustrator or Fireworks. I also don't understand why I can't use it as a jog/****** in Premier, or for camera control in After Effects. If you are going to support some of CS3, I really think it only makes sense to support the whole package.

But that's just it, gaming or not, because very few companies can write specific drivers for every app, you make a "Generic" Set where you can map it to something that every app uses Mouse ans KB... So while 3DConnexion is working on special tools for special applications, you can get sarted by having certain tools run the way you'd want to.

I also understand but can't agree that 3DConnexion is using a function scheme in the Maya plugin, I don't know what menu the function the snap to point is under I know it's "V" as a hotkey. Why not let me map keystrokes to my function keys in the configuration window, my setup would have been 1/4 as frustrating, than finding where the change shading mode is. And don't get me wrong haing all the functions, and functions + option Box are cool, but spice of life is options.
Also what about a "Toggle" to be able to toggle through Translate Rotate and Scale gismos... I'd be able to use the other button for things like toggle shaded and wire frame... I'd be able to assign way more functions to buttons with toggles... since they'd all be 2+ functions deep, like the configure button (toggles through configurations)

[lmlloyd]

But that's just it, gaming or not, because very few companies can write specific drivers for every app, you make a "Generic" Set where you can map it to something that every app uses Mouse ans KB... So while 3DConnexion is working on special tools for special applications, you can get sarted by having certain tools run the way you'd want to.

Look, I am not going to claim I am some expert at how USB devices interface with software, but I am pretty positive that without special software, there is no Joystick support anywhere in CS3, and it can only support one pointing device. That means all you could map would be keystrokes, unless you make special software for the app. Show me a joystick that lets you zoom and pan around Photoshop. There is no magic "generic" way to add additional controls to apps that weren't designed to have them. As I said, they have generic 6-axis HID compliant drivers right now. This device would automatically work with any device that added support for the generic HID device. I think people forget that even the Wacom tablets required a special Photoshop plug-in for years to use pressure sensitivity or tilt. It is only after many years of users requesting it, and competitive pressure from apps like Painter and Macromedia's products, that Adobe added native tablet support. Even today there isn't some "generic" tablet driver that adds pressure sensitivity to apps that are not built to use it. For example, did you even know that all Intuos tablets actually support multiple pointing device simultaneously? No, no one knews it, because there isn't a single app that supports multiple pointing devices, so it is a completely useless feature. As far as I understand it, what you are asking for wouldn't get you what you want, it would just turn the device into a Nostormo gamepad that cost several times as much. Even if you mapped it to a mouse, then you would have to choose between using it, or the mouse/tablet, because the software will only recognize one pointing device at a time.

I also understand but can't agree that 3DConnexion is using a function scheme in the Maya plugin, I don't know what menu the function the snap to point is under I know it's "V" as a hotkey. Why not let me map keystrokes to my function keys in the configuration window, my setup would have been 1/4 as frustrating, than finding where the change shading mode is. And don't get me wrong haing all the functions, and functions + option Box are cool, but spice of life is options.

Here I just don't know what you are talking about. There is a button mapping editor that lets you assign any function in Maya to any button on the device. What more could you want? Besides, if you really don't like how it works in Maya, you can always just remove the 3dxware software, attach it as a device and write a MEL or Python script to map any axis or button to any channel in Maya. That is how I was using my old serial Spaceball before I got this new Space Explorer.

Also what about a "Toggle" to be able to toggle through Translate Rotate and Scale gismos... I'd be able to use the other button for things like toggle shaded and wire frame... I'd be able to assign way more functions to buttons with toggles... since they'd all be 2+ functions deep, like the configure button (toggles through configurations)

Doesn't the SpacePilot have this feature, complete with an LCD to keep you informed of what each button does in each mode? It sounds to me like what you need isn't a different driver, but a different device, and to use the features on the driver you have.

[DCrosby]

Look, I am not going to claim I am some expert at how USB devices interface with software, but I am pretty positive that without special software, there is no Joystick support anywhere in CS3, and it can only support one pointing device. That means all you could map would be keystrokes, unless you make special software for the app. Show me a joystick that lets you zoom and pan around Photoshop. There is no magic "generic" way to add additional controls to apps that weren't designed to have them. As I said, they have generic 6-axis HID compliant drivers right now. This device would automatically work with any device that added support for the generic HID device. I think people forget that even the Wacom tablets required a special Photoshop plug-in for years to use pressure sensitivity or tilt. It is only after many years of users requesting it, and competitive pressure from apps like Painter and Macromedia's products, that Adobe added native tablet support. Even today there isn't some "generic" tablet driver that adds pressure sensitivity to apps that are not built to use it. For example, did you even know that all Intuos tablets actually support multiple pointing device simultaneously? No, no one knews it, because there isn't a single app that supports multiple pointing devices, so it is a completely useless feature. As far as I understand it, what you are asking for wouldn't get you what you want, it would just turn the device into a Nostormo gamepad that cost several times as much. Even if you mapped it to a mouse, then you would have to choose between using it, or the mouse/tablet, because the software will only recognize one pointing device at a time.

That's not what I'm talking about, I'm not saying give me pressure control with my SpacePilot, what I'm saying is while you (3DConnexion) work on pressure control, or brush size, let me have some drivers that emulate a mouse, and assign key strokes like "Ctrl-Z" to a button on the controller, and let me work with it that way untill you guys come out with some sort of "Amazing" Software to do things I never thought I needed. Until then, let me use it to make me switch between KB and Mouse / Spaceball less. which is one of the selling point of the device, is it not ? My specific Gripe sits with 3D apps that have keyboard mapping for Translate Forward Back, rotate, that you can assign to any "Keystroke" yet because I can't assign any keystroke to an axis on the space pilot I can't make the two talk... and this functionality would be fine with me untill such time as Epic, or Mudbox, or any other 3D app I use wake up and implement it on their side.

Here I just don't know what you are talking about. There is a button mapping editor that lets you assign any function in Maya to any button on the device. What more could you want? Besides, if you really don't like how it works in Maya, you can always just remove the 3dxware software, attach it as a device and write a MEL or Python script to map any axis or button to any channel in Maya. That is how I was using my old serial Spaceball before I got this new Space Explorer.

I'm talking about how many times I go from shaded to wireframe. If I want to set that up on the space pilot I'm using 2 of the six function keys. If I add Translate Rotate Scale I'm up to 5, which leaves me 1 for undo. and I'm screwed if I want redo, unless I want to abandon Ctrl Alt Esc, or shift. Why ? Why not be able to press Function key (1) 3 times to cycle through (Translate Rotate Scale) (Shaded, Shaded XRay, and Wireframe), (PointSnap, Curve Snap or Grid Snap). All >9< functions could be handled by 3 Function keys. Undo and Redo are different, since you don't know how many times each key will be pressed, with how many times can you smooth shade something ? What about toggling isolate selected, if you drag that function into the hotkey it won't return you to a "non isolated state" yet in maya if you select isolate selected when something is already isolated(indicated by check mark) it becomes un-isolated and you return to your scene. But this is really a discussion for a maya specific thread.

[rstadie]

...If I want to set that up on the space pilot I'm using 2 of the six function keys. If I add Translate Rotate Scale I'm up to 5, which leaves me 1 for undo. and I'm screwed if I want redo, unless I want to abandon Ctrl Alt Esc, or shift. ...

There is a "Config" button on the SpacePilot which will cycle through as many configuration sets as you want. Is this what you are searching for?

[DCrosby]

...If I want to set that up on the space pilot I'm using 2 of the six function keys. If I add Translate Rotate Scale I'm up to 5, which leaves me 1 for undo. and I'm screwed if I want redo, unless I want to abandon Ctrl Alt Esc, or shift. ...

There is a "Config" button on the SpacePilot which will cycle through as many configuration sets as you want. Is this what you are searching for?

I know I saw the post about voting for the config button
But, no that's not what I had in mind, because I'd want a true toggle, with as many SUB buttons as I choose... having a button to turn something on, and needing to specify another to turn stuff off, it like having two light switches for every bulb in your home, it's not efficient..

[HoP]

This thread is too long to read, but I'll reply on one quick point:

"First off, let me say, you aren't going to be particularly convincing with your arguments that this company would conquer the world if they just sold this, and supported it, as a gaming device. This was already tried with the Spaceball, and no one was interested. In fact, the company did so well with that strategy, that they got bought out, by these guys!"

Years ago I wanted to spend $400 on a Spaceball for this exact purpose. That's a lot of money for a 'mouse replacement'. I mailed asking if it could be used for that purpose and the official response was 'No', so I'm not sure when this was 'already tried with the spaceball'. I was interested, and denied.

While I don't see any 'conquer the world'. I'm sure what people are asking for would not be difficult to officially support and provide, especially given the cost of the devices prior to the SpaceNavigator.

[Dwabble]

I think it's clear that 3dconnexion has chosen a strategy of not going the joy/mouse emulation road and for those that want it there is the RBC9 driver, which incidentally didn't crash my XP system, not sure what's with all those people claiming left and right that XP crashes so much, but I digresss.

BUT.. seeing that 3dconnexion have chosen to go that road but don't mind projects like the RBC9 one, perhaps one or more people at 3dconnexion can, under an alias, help such projects along a bit? Since the coding staff of 3dconnexion know about the device and driver implementation they could for instance discreetly and unofficially compile RBC9's driver for 64-bit systems

Just a thought.

[Dwabble]

Oh incidentally, 3dconnexion also installs a well documented dll with their driver which can access the device and read it's information, and even the 3dconnexion GUI's settings, so as I mention in the RBC9 thread it can't be that hard to make your own app/utility if you wish, and even though not everybody is or can be a programmer many people do dabble in it and with a ready-made dll available as well as it being a standard HID device a project would be that much easier than having no info/dll.
In that regard 3dconnexion isn't that bad, many companies would not supply such a dll, and might delete posts like the RBC9 project, and would use some austere way to prevent 3rd party projects, so I for one appreciate that they aren't like that at least, kudos for that.

[Alaric]

Any progress in this department? Since purchasing this product some months ago for personal use I have since purchased and recommended a dozen more.. I absolutely love this product and agree on the fact that I find myself trying to use it for simple 2D navigation as well as in every 3D app I use in my work pipeline.

I would very much like to see a wider and more common usability of this wonderful product. Since finding it I am actually finding that I don't use any software as much that does not have support for it. While you might use this as ammo for convincing companies to get their collective buttocks in gear to produce quality integration of your product in to their packages I am still wanting to see this product have the simple profiles or even a generic basic use in the operating system and standard windows along with my advanced applications.

My company is planning to include native support for these 3D mice in our game releases up in coming however we feel it is a shame that the majority of our users will not experience the game as we hope as a result of the poor saturation of the product as a result of the closed, 3rd/1st party collaboration requirement or responsibility in supporting this.

Thank you for your time and please consider the needs of your customers like me that only tell those who use 3D Studio Max about your wonderful product instead of everyone we see.

Alaric

PS yes I joined this forum for one reason alone.. to hope for better support. Otherwise it works wonderfully and I love it.. so please turn my into a

Reference topics: posting.php?mode=reply&t=817

viewtopic.php?t=817&postdays=0&postorde ... e&start=30

[Marque]

first post so I can post a new thread. please ignore this but I'm forced to post to a thread before I can start a thread which is pretty stupid but here it is.

[ngomes]

Hi Marque,

first post so I can post a new thread. please ignore this but I'm forced to post to a thread before I can start a thread which is pretty stupid but here it is.

We very much regret the inconvenience. We were forced to take this measure to mitigate the Forum being "spammed" with pornographic and other type of messages created by (automated) bots.

The alternative was to have a person vetting each and every post. That would cause a delay (hours) and we felt that would be a worse option for our customers.

In the end, this "post once before creating a topic" is not that intrusive. Forum users can read and reply without being aware the restriction even exists.

[jmoseley]

Hi all,

I thought I'd post some news here as the thread is about new ways we want to use our 3D mice.

The news... a UK games developer (Introversion) has added 3D mouse support to their latest game - Multiwinia.

I had to "test" the game a bit so I can safely say it's pretty cool.

You can vist this page for more info and find a link to the free demo: http://www.3dconnexion.com/solutions/multiwinia.php

Have fun!

John

[abbashid]

Just took delivery of a SpaceNavigator PE, and was wondering if anyone has implemented a specific driver to support Flight Simulator Mode in Google Earth.

More specifically, the ability to emulate a Side-Stick (joystick), where the roll and pitch axes are mapped to the aerolons and elevator respectively. the pan back and forth mapped to the throttle, the pan left and right mapped to the rudder function.
Alternatively, the Up/Down (Zoom Axis) could be mapped to the throttle!

I assume this could be implemented by a combination of Joystick and keystroke emulation.

Thx.

[bamajr]

Hi Marque,

first post so I can post a new thread. please ignore this but I'm forced to post to a thread before I can start a thread which is pretty stupid but here it is.

We very much regret the inconvenience. We were forced to take this measure to mitigate the Forum being "spammed" with pornographic and other type of messages created by (automated) bots.

The alternative was to have a person vetting each and every post. That would cause a delay (hours) and we felt that would be a worse option for our customers.

In the end, this "post once before creating a topic" is not that intrusive. Forum users can read and reply without being aware the restriction even exists.

Why not add a confimation code for each post like you do for registering to use the forum. SPAM is a problem on many other forums, and it is handled without this function.