From what i read, it seems you are unwilling to update the drivers as people desire because you're afraid a mouse/keyboard emulation will affect the existing (3d) user base.
The solution to that i think is fairly simple. Why don't you give the option in the driver for the device to be used either as a 3d mouse or as a general input device like a mouse or a keyboard?
To not affect existing 3d users, the default option would be 3d mouse and then the rest of the users can simply enable the general usage option.
This doesn't bide well for the future.....
Moderator: Moderators
I really don't get why you guys do not work on a generic driver, that simply supports ALL software by being able to assign events to the device. Rbc9 already showed you how to do it... just work his solution over and finally release a fully working driver (32 and 64 bit Vista support).jwick wrote:...and it would be GREAT!!! if all our users would tell us which applications they want to use. It makes it much easier for us to concentrate our efforts (engineering, marketing, business development and sales), ...of course, you have to live by the majority <G>.
Jim
It's not very clever that you rather want to create seperate plugins for all different tools... what of cause never will happen... cause I remember reading most of the time "Please ask the software vendor or the user comunity of the software to create a plugin via the SDK" etc... So your statement above is just some hot air.
The only way to go is to finally release a generic driver Rbc9 style!
Without such a driver, your products are like Muscelcars without the engine....
Imagine your controllers are compatible with basically ALL software including games.... they will sell like crazy.... but maybe you want to keep the user-comunity small!?... for what reason ever!?
Come on guys, get busy!
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phoenix.ger
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:57 am
Registered just to post the same as everyone else here
Hello 3d-Con. developers,
hello forum mates,
just received my shiny new SN and instantly wound up feeling the "per-application" approach for the driver is absolutely ridiculous. There are thousands of 3D-applications out there and it's absolutely impossible for any developer team smaller than the Chinese Army to implement a driver for every application that could benefit from using a 3d-input device.
The current viewcount for the generic mouse driver stands at an impressive 160'000 views, so by comparing it to the vista compatibility thread it's a guess to say there are 8 times more users wanting a generic interface than wanting a vista compatible driver.
- Most games have support for a joystick with several axes and some buttons.
- There are millions of 3rd-party utilities available for joysticks with several axes and some buttons.
- Many or with some help every single application can be made to a joystick with several axes and some buttons.
and in case you haven't noticed: every 3d-connexion input device has several axes and two or more buttons.
I can not think about a serious and honest response on why exactly it is not possible to generate a software link between "3d SN device with several axes" to "device identified as a joystick with several axes".
Adding this software link was done by a single developer, acting alone in his free time. Please take on this work and polish it to a production quality release.
Adding the option to use a SN as a generic multi-axis joystick device / game controller ADDS value to your product and does not take away anything from it. People buy products for their features, not for features intentionally left out.
A generic driver either as a mouse or a keyboard will appeal to users that would never ever consider a 3d-input device otherwise: gamers, serious gamers and gamers with cash to burn. It may be hard to accept, but some gamers spend thousands of dollars on hardware to play their games well. Compare it to Alienware if you think thats a low-budget niche segment.
Devoting developer time to a generic input device driver is a win-win-situation. Your company wins customers and customer satisfaction - and the users can finally use the applications they want to use, not only those that the Company allows them to.
There are games out there that actually use any number of joystick axes. Your device can control a huge amount of axes. Please do us all a favor and connect the little dots that 0.15 MILLION users have pointed out here in the forum.
The customer may not always be right, but a hundred thousand customers are: We buy your products, we pay your rent, we recommend you our bosses, friends and coworkers and we only have ONE SINGULARY WISH FOR YOU:
Please create a generic input device to use your products with any application that can use a mouse or a joystick.
This is the reason this thread has more user views than all other threads on the entire forum combined. This is the reason many of us have bought this device and it could be the turning reason for many of us if we will sell it dirt cheap on ebay or recommend it to all the world.
Please do not program any plug-in, any extension or anything else until the generic driver is finished. A hundred-thousand-and-sixty users do not need them. Uncounted millions could be buying your Space Navigator Personal if it would mean a tiny advantage in World of Warcraft or any other popular online game.
The Space Nagivator is a novel, expensive and luxurious multi-axis joystick, whether you admit it or not. Everyone knows that, so please let the people have it their way.
hello forum mates,
just received my shiny new SN and instantly wound up feeling the "per-application" approach for the driver is absolutely ridiculous. There are thousands of 3D-applications out there and it's absolutely impossible for any developer team smaller than the Chinese Army to implement a driver for every application that could benefit from using a 3d-input device.
The current viewcount for the generic mouse driver stands at an impressive 160'000 views, so by comparing it to the vista compatibility thread it's a guess to say there are 8 times more users wanting a generic interface than wanting a vista compatible driver.
- Most games have support for a joystick with several axes and some buttons.
- There are millions of 3rd-party utilities available for joysticks with several axes and some buttons.
- Many or with some help every single application can be made to a joystick with several axes and some buttons.
and in case you haven't noticed: every 3d-connexion input device has several axes and two or more buttons.
I can not think about a serious and honest response on why exactly it is not possible to generate a software link between "3d SN device with several axes" to "device identified as a joystick with several axes".
Adding this software link was done by a single developer, acting alone in his free time. Please take on this work and polish it to a production quality release.
Adding the option to use a SN as a generic multi-axis joystick device / game controller ADDS value to your product and does not take away anything from it. People buy products for their features, not for features intentionally left out.
A generic driver either as a mouse or a keyboard will appeal to users that would never ever consider a 3d-input device otherwise: gamers, serious gamers and gamers with cash to burn. It may be hard to accept, but some gamers spend thousands of dollars on hardware to play their games well. Compare it to Alienware if you think thats a low-budget niche segment.
Devoting developer time to a generic input device driver is a win-win-situation. Your company wins customers and customer satisfaction - and the users can finally use the applications they want to use, not only those that the Company allows them to.
There are games out there that actually use any number of joystick axes. Your device can control a huge amount of axes. Please do us all a favor and connect the little dots that 0.15 MILLION users have pointed out here in the forum.
The customer may not always be right, but a hundred thousand customers are: We buy your products, we pay your rent, we recommend you our bosses, friends and coworkers and we only have ONE SINGULARY WISH FOR YOU:
Please create a generic input device to use your products with any application that can use a mouse or a joystick.
This is the reason this thread has more user views than all other threads on the entire forum combined. This is the reason many of us have bought this device and it could be the turning reason for many of us if we will sell it dirt cheap on ebay or recommend it to all the world.
Please do not program any plug-in, any extension or anything else until the generic driver is finished. A hundred-thousand-and-sixty users do not need them. Uncounted millions could be buying your Space Navigator Personal if it would mean a tiny advantage in World of Warcraft or any other popular online game.
The Space Nagivator is a novel, expensive and luxurious multi-axis joystick, whether you admit it or not. Everyone knows that, so please let the people have it their way.
Consolidated from another thread
Recently I have aquired a SpaceNavigator, and must say it's a great tool for applications that support it (in my case Photoshop CS3, Cinema 4D and Sketchup), but feel it's full potential is being let down because of lack of generic support.
I fully understand the advantages of native implementations in applications and games, and that your developers may have different priorities. However, acceptance of new technology, and implementiation of native support by external developers depends on their priorities. One of the major factors influencing these priorities is installed userbase, which could be greatly expanded with generic driver support.
Community efforts like RBC9's hacked Windows driver have shown it is technically feasible, and there's even a commercial option (ControllerMate) for Macs. However, ControllerMate would not have existed if it would only have supported SpaceControllers, simply because their market would have been too small. Lack of publicity and support of RBC9's solution will do nothing to increase the number of adapted SpaceControllers, especially while it is lacking support for early adopter OS'es (x64 XP and Vista).
Generic support in applications would already increase the useability and userbase of SpaceControllers, but the advent of general multi-axis joystick support in games through Microsoft's "Games for Windows" initiative is a great opportunity as well. Playing games with a SpaceController is comparable to console controller precision, but is much more versatile, intuitive and immersive than the usual dual thumbsticks. With generic HID mapping abilities, the userbase could increase considerably, after which developer acceptance will become much easier."Games for Windows" compatible schemes would be easiest to adapt with generic SpaceController support, but other games would also greatly benefit with the extra control opportunities your product would bring.
For instance, playing World of Warcraft with a SpaceController currently will involve a template mixing mouse- and keymapping that is far from optimal, but opens up completely new ways of control amazing current players. In a community that has concentrated information centres, where word-of-mouth approval is valued greatly, and technical aptitude is above average, a growing amount of SpaceControllers might lead to generic support for joysticks or even native SpaceController support. A big opportunity, especially since both the game and the controller are supported on Windows and Mac. Such support would increase the control effectiveness of all types of players choosing a SpaceController, be they former "keyers" (using hotkeys) or "clickers" (clicking the GUI), giving the opportunity to offload movement and camera control from the dominant hand to the other. A potential market of millions awaits.
The last foray of SpaceControllers into the consumer/entertainment market,the 90's SpaceOrb, was a failure because it was far ahead of its time. Not only let down by poor design decisions, but most severely by the need of native support forced by the DOS age. With the current design and generic control based on HID schemes, this should no longer be necessary. Alternative controllers like Nintendo's Wiimote and Sony's Sixaxis are more and more accepted into the mainstream, despite being less precise. The SpaceController could become PC gaming's control icon, as well as emphasizing and enriching the traditional uses of the PC, and even creating new ones. All of this without specialized additional hardware or software support, just by a logical addition to the driver software.
I cannot imagine why 3Dconnexion, and even less, Logitech itself, whose position as leading controller manufacturer is diluted by the native controllers supplied with the consoles, does not adjust its priorities. Even if protecting the position of their traditional controllers would be a motive, a bigger opportunity would be missed
I fully understand the advantages of native implementations in applications and games, and that your developers may have different priorities. However, acceptance of new technology, and implementiation of native support by external developers depends on their priorities. One of the major factors influencing these priorities is installed userbase, which could be greatly expanded with generic driver support.
Community efforts like RBC9's hacked Windows driver have shown it is technically feasible, and there's even a commercial option (ControllerMate) for Macs. However, ControllerMate would not have existed if it would only have supported SpaceControllers, simply because their market would have been too small. Lack of publicity and support of RBC9's solution will do nothing to increase the number of adapted SpaceControllers, especially while it is lacking support for early adopter OS'es (x64 XP and Vista).
Generic support in applications would already increase the useability and userbase of SpaceControllers, but the advent of general multi-axis joystick support in games through Microsoft's "Games for Windows" initiative is a great opportunity as well. Playing games with a SpaceController is comparable to console controller precision, but is much more versatile, intuitive and immersive than the usual dual thumbsticks. With generic HID mapping abilities, the userbase could increase considerably, after which developer acceptance will become much easier."Games for Windows" compatible schemes would be easiest to adapt with generic SpaceController support, but other games would also greatly benefit with the extra control opportunities your product would bring.
For instance, playing World of Warcraft with a SpaceController currently will involve a template mixing mouse- and keymapping that is far from optimal, but opens up completely new ways of control amazing current players. In a community that has concentrated information centres, where word-of-mouth approval is valued greatly, and technical aptitude is above average, a growing amount of SpaceControllers might lead to generic support for joysticks or even native SpaceController support. A big opportunity, especially since both the game and the controller are supported on Windows and Mac. Such support would increase the control effectiveness of all types of players choosing a SpaceController, be they former "keyers" (using hotkeys) or "clickers" (clicking the GUI), giving the opportunity to offload movement and camera control from the dominant hand to the other. A potential market of millions awaits.
The last foray of SpaceControllers into the consumer/entertainment market,the 90's SpaceOrb, was a failure because it was far ahead of its time. Not only let down by poor design decisions, but most severely by the need of native support forced by the DOS age. With the current design and generic control based on HID schemes, this should no longer be necessary. Alternative controllers like Nintendo's Wiimote and Sony's Sixaxis are more and more accepted into the mainstream, despite being less precise. The SpaceController could become PC gaming's control icon, as well as emphasizing and enriching the traditional uses of the PC, and even creating new ones. All of this without specialized additional hardware or software support, just by a logical addition to the driver software.
I cannot imagine why 3Dconnexion, and even less, Logitech itself, whose position as leading controller manufacturer is diluted by the native controllers supplied with the consoles, does not adjust its priorities. Even if protecting the position of their traditional controllers would be a motive, a bigger opportunity would be missed
I am part of a start-up in the Second Life medium developing 3D objects and real estate. My company has just purchased several of your 3D mice and I have a SpaceExplorer. It works great in the apps that it is supported in, such as Google Earth, but we bought these specifially for Second Life and we find that they're not even supported in that app?!
I've been reading on this whole topic and finding ways around it but so far all I've seen is that you guys simply don't want to take the time to either: support more apps or to just create a generic driver to use with most/all apps, which will save a lot of your apparently limited resources and time. Everyone here is right that the only thing it would do is create more usability for your devices which would attract more people to buy these devices. That alone should be motivation enough and yet there are so many customers who wish you would do something about this, yet you do nothing? You say it's policy; why? A single programmer can write something in his own time yet a company can't?
Please release a solution to this and very soon. By soon I don't mean another year from now. We would ALL benefit from this.
Eric O.
3D Team
Second Life Synergetics
I've been reading on this whole topic and finding ways around it but so far all I've seen is that you guys simply don't want to take the time to either: support more apps or to just create a generic driver to use with most/all apps, which will save a lot of your apparently limited resources and time. Everyone here is right that the only thing it would do is create more usability for your devices which would attract more people to buy these devices. That alone should be motivation enough and yet there are so many customers who wish you would do something about this, yet you do nothing? You say it's policy; why? A single programmer can write something in his own time yet a company can't?
Please release a solution to this and very soon. By soon I don't mean another year from now. We would ALL benefit from this.
Eric O.
3D Team
Second Life Synergetics
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stocktrader
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:31 am
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yuriythebest
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:39 pm
- Contact:
is logitech intentionally preventing you from writing that driver? I can almost visualise some shadowy corporationy office scene with bosses with sigars laughing maniacally about their corporate greed.
if that's not the case then release the joint 3d+2d drivers! please! what is wrong with you people! allow us the option to assign keys to each axis, and the option to use it as a 3d mouse. Don't give us the "we are aiming at a rich experience" mumbo jumbo I don't buy it. Separate yourselves from logitech if necessary if they're the ones holding you back. Kill logitech!!! give us good drivers.
if that's not the case then release the joint 3d+2d drivers! please! what is wrong with you people! allow us the option to assign keys to each axis, and the option to use it as a 3d mouse. Don't give us the "we are aiming at a rich experience" mumbo jumbo I don't buy it. Separate yourselves from logitech if necessary if they're the ones holding you back. Kill logitech!!! give us good drivers.
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InterestedAnimator
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:44 pm
Yeah I was asking about this a long time ago in another post but no dice.
What frustrates me most is they actively support Google Earth rather than something, that isn't a toy/high tech mapquest.
WTF
What frustrates me most is they actively support Google Earth rather than something, that isn't a toy/high tech mapquest.
WTF
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InterestedAnimator
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:44 pm
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yuriythebest
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:39 pm
- Contact:
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InterestedAnimator
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:44 pm
Okay... I have an example of an app (well, a game) that would benefit from a generic joystick driver:
Descent II
It actually has 6DOF movement. I've used a SpaceOrb before. There are *definitely* uses for a generic joystick driver.
I -- as well as the rest of the community here -- would LOVE one.
At least make a small driver that has it show up as a standard Windows joystick if the 3DxWare driver isn't loaded!
Please?
With a cherry on top?
-- J.P.
Descent II
It actually has 6DOF movement. I've used a SpaceOrb before. There are *definitely* uses for a generic joystick driver.
I -- as well as the rest of the community here -- would LOVE one.
At least make a small driver that has it show up as a standard Windows joystick if the 3DxWare driver isn't loaded!
Please?
With a cherry on top?
-- J.P.